radleywotson
Sep 1, 12:08 AM
Gorgeous. Anyone who has ever been interested in cars or driving should try this, it is sublime attention to detail is amazing, one of the most beautiful interface I have ever seen.
hcho3
Apr 19, 08:15 PM
Samsung is the worst company with ideas. They just copied off apple on everything they make, period.
Yes, their Nexus S phones have almost as same packaging as iPhone 3GS or iPhone 4 packaging.
Yes, their icons are so similar.
Yes, their UI is very identical to Apple's iOS.
Their new Samsung 9 series laptop has drop ports and original macbook air had this as well.
Samsung just copies apple. Good to see apple is suing them. Love competitions, but apple spent money on investing, marketing and entering the market with the new design. Samsung? No. They just copied.
They deserve to lose and they will lose in this trial.
Yes, their Nexus S phones have almost as same packaging as iPhone 3GS or iPhone 4 packaging.
Yes, their icons are so similar.
Yes, their UI is very identical to Apple's iOS.
Their new Samsung 9 series laptop has drop ports and original macbook air had this as well.
Samsung just copies apple. Good to see apple is suing them. Love competitions, but apple spent money on investing, marketing and entering the market with the new design. Samsung? No. They just copied.
They deserve to lose and they will lose in this trial.
nvbrit
Apr 25, 01:59 PM
And even if they did, what would they do with it? Go to my friends house and come visit me at my address? All that information has been in the local phone book for decades.
and if someone wanted to use this information for criminal purposes to track you, they would have to have first tracked you anyway in order to get your phone or computer from you to get this information so then what really is the point?!
and if someone wanted to use this information for criminal purposes to track you, they would have to have first tracked you anyway in order to get your phone or computer from you to get this information so then what really is the point?!
puckhead193
Nov 28, 08:17 PM
well their not getting a dollar from my sale cause i don't plan on buying an ipod for a while :D :rolleyes:
how many ipods does apple sell a year..times a crap load of money
how many ipods does apple sell a year..times a crap load of money
Blue Velvet
Apr 27, 02:43 PM
Are you calling me a liar? I literally went to WhiteHouse.gov, opened the file in Illustrator, and moved the text around myself. :rolleyes:
You said you opened the file in Indesign which is what sparked my interest, because that's something you can't technically do. We've already established long ago that you're untrustworthy, so it's fair to be suspicious.
Some things never change. Laughably bias.
You're so cute when you're whining. :)
are there any graphic designers here who can help?
Sure there are. Been designing since before you were born. This file does not have layers. It has objects within one group. A document created in 1961 will have been scanned, possible inadvertently split into sections as it's not even a linked group or even a compound path. MattSepata is correct to some extent, but I doubt it's been OCRed. Just a crappily-made PDF... which hasn't even been security-locked.
Nice try, but no cookie, Sherlock.
You said you opened the file in Indesign which is what sparked my interest, because that's something you can't technically do. We've already established long ago that you're untrustworthy, so it's fair to be suspicious.
Some things never change. Laughably bias.
You're so cute when you're whining. :)
are there any graphic designers here who can help?
Sure there are. Been designing since before you were born. This file does not have layers. It has objects within one group. A document created in 1961 will have been scanned, possible inadvertently split into sections as it's not even a linked group or even a compound path. MattSepata is correct to some extent, but I doubt it's been OCRed. Just a crappily-made PDF... which hasn't even been security-locked.
Nice try, but no cookie, Sherlock.
princealfie
Nov 29, 09:53 AM
http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/000516.php
QuarterSwede
Apr 25, 01:44 PM
Wounded, Apple will go on strike and remove all GPS from future devices now. ;)
Apple's not spiteful at all. Nah. /sarcasm
Apple's not spiteful at all. Nah. /sarcasm
~Shard~
Jul 15, 12:49 AM
Still, it's ridiculous that Apple's Top-Of-The-Line machines don't come STANDARD with 1 gig of ram. I can guarantee they will when they come out next month.
Oh, I agree - I should hope this is the case. In this day and age, 1 GB should be table stakes, especially when you're dealing with Pro machines - I would bet that most PowerMac owners upgrade to at least 2 GB of RAM standard as it is. Throw on top of that the fact that Leopard is coming out in (presumably) 6 months, give or take, and I'm sure that 1 GB will be required to run that with any degree of smoothness as well.
Here's hoping you're right. I think including 512 MB of RAM standard would be a bit of a slap in the face if Apple is releasing these supposedly "advanced" machines. What kind of advanced PowerMac has only 512 MB of RAM standard? ;) :cool:
Oh, I agree - I should hope this is the case. In this day and age, 1 GB should be table stakes, especially when you're dealing with Pro machines - I would bet that most PowerMac owners upgrade to at least 2 GB of RAM standard as it is. Throw on top of that the fact that Leopard is coming out in (presumably) 6 months, give or take, and I'm sure that 1 GB will be required to run that with any degree of smoothness as well.
Here's hoping you're right. I think including 512 MB of RAM standard would be a bit of a slap in the face if Apple is releasing these supposedly "advanced" machines. What kind of advanced PowerMac has only 512 MB of RAM standard? ;) :cool:
LethalWolfe
Apr 10, 10:31 PM
Unless, like I posted earlier, the iPad app functions as a UI for the main application over the network. The Mac (or cluster of macs) takes care of the heavy lifting, and the iPad is used to make edits remotely, and broadcast to HDTV's.
AirPlay & AirEdit.
If you had a cluster of Mac Pro's using thunderbolt (or whatever...ethernet, fibre, etc) to talk to each other, and you used the iPad as a remote UI, you could edit, compress, and broadcast from anywhere.
Apple has all the pieces in place to do this. AirPlay, AppleTV, iPad, iTunes as a media hub for all the devices to communicate, Qmaster, etc...
This has been a long time coming. I remember in 2006-2007 hearing rumors that Apple was working on a tablet like controller for logic. It was to be used to edit the timeline, or act as a virtual mixer, etc. This has been brewing for years, and I think it's almost a reality.
Avid demo'd basically this last year at NAB. IIRC all the media was on servers in Virginia and the presenter did the demonstration on a laptop using a web app.
Lethal
AirPlay & AirEdit.
If you had a cluster of Mac Pro's using thunderbolt (or whatever...ethernet, fibre, etc) to talk to each other, and you used the iPad as a remote UI, you could edit, compress, and broadcast from anywhere.
Apple has all the pieces in place to do this. AirPlay, AppleTV, iPad, iTunes as a media hub for all the devices to communicate, Qmaster, etc...
This has been a long time coming. I remember in 2006-2007 hearing rumors that Apple was working on a tablet like controller for logic. It was to be used to edit the timeline, or act as a virtual mixer, etc. This has been brewing for years, and I think it's almost a reality.
Avid demo'd basically this last year at NAB. IIRC all the media was on servers in Virginia and the presenter did the demonstration on a laptop using a web app.
Lethal
KnightWRX
Apr 8, 08:21 PM
Intel is not forcing anything.
Intel forced nVidia out of the chipset business. :p Which is what led to this whole GPU downgrade for Sandy Bridge equipped Macs with IGPs.
Intel forced nVidia out of the chipset business. :p Which is what led to this whole GPU downgrade for Sandy Bridge equipped Macs with IGPs.
peterdevries
Apr 27, 08:50 AM
Your type of apathy in the long term will do more harm than good.
There is a big difference between voluntarily and involuntarily giving out personal information and that's what was at stake here.
Apple admitted error - it's ok - you can admit it might not have been in the best interest of consumers too. Apple won't come and take your iPhone away.
Well said, but as Apple has already stated they are not collecting this information for other use than speeding up location. Considering the fact that cases against Apple are already underway, I trust the information they released today to be accurate. It would be foolish to mislead customers while proceedings have started.
Many people that cried outrage are actually ignoring more obvious privacy issues: twitter, foursquare and facebook status updates, and eg. the announcement today that TomTom actually actively sells location and speed data from drivers to the police, to aid in the strategic placement of speed cameras.
There is a big difference between voluntarily and involuntarily giving out personal information and that's what was at stake here.
Apple admitted error - it's ok - you can admit it might not have been in the best interest of consumers too. Apple won't come and take your iPhone away.
Well said, but as Apple has already stated they are not collecting this information for other use than speeding up location. Considering the fact that cases against Apple are already underway, I trust the information they released today to be accurate. It would be foolish to mislead customers while proceedings have started.
Many people that cried outrage are actually ignoring more obvious privacy issues: twitter, foursquare and facebook status updates, and eg. the announcement today that TomTom actually actively sells location and speed data from drivers to the police, to aid in the strategic placement of speed cameras.
poppe
Jul 14, 02:37 PM
Maybe one of the drives will be Blu-Ray.
Appleinsider is saying that it can be used for both at your choice, but you have to go buy it and put it in. Not a add on to ordering.
So excited... How come no FW800 infront? thats a little crazy no?
Just think if this was apple leaking out information when really its a completely different design. Since they're was that leaking lawsuit and all. Wouldn't it be great if the figured out the sources leaking internaly and made those sources give Appleinsider false information.
Come August 7th, It's completely different... (oh just woke up from my dream.)
Appleinsider is saying that it can be used for both at your choice, but you have to go buy it and put it in. Not a add on to ordering.
So excited... How come no FW800 infront? thats a little crazy no?
Just think if this was apple leaking out information when really its a completely different design. Since they're was that leaking lawsuit and all. Wouldn't it be great if the figured out the sources leaking internaly and made those sources give Appleinsider false information.
Come August 7th, It's completely different... (oh just woke up from my dream.)
charlituna
Apr 5, 11:48 PM
YES!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyqUj3PGHv4)
Did you see the Conan version.
I hope the next release of FCS integrates the different apps within the suite under a single UI.
I don't have an issue with the apps being separate but I do agree that a more common UI would be nice.
And I too hope to see the rest of Shake return in some form or another.
The speculation is that REDRay will be used for everything from 4K DCP playback in movie theaters to a download/streaming version that will be usable for buying up to 4K movies through iTunes.
if this means we could get HD itunes that are actually blu-ray quality without it being 50 GB I'm all for it.
I hope they ship it on DVD as i'm not going to tie up my Internet connection for 3 hrs while it downloads:(
Agreed. If not DVDs then a flash drive like they did the restore stuff for the Airs
I doubt Apple will ship a new version of FCP before they ship lion,
folks said the same thing about FCS3 and Snow Leopard and yet as I recall that is exactly what they did.
Ugh. Final Cut is fine the way it is for now... We need iWeb overhaul!! Make it more search engine friendly, none of the text as an image crap. grrr...
Final Cut is fine but it could be much better. Both full studios in fact could be much much better in a number of ways
That said, there are rumors about iWeb being revamped which is why it wasn't updated in iLife 11. And about the release of an iweb for ipad app. So you might get your wish
Did you see the Conan version.
I hope the next release of FCS integrates the different apps within the suite under a single UI.
I don't have an issue with the apps being separate but I do agree that a more common UI would be nice.
And I too hope to see the rest of Shake return in some form or another.
The speculation is that REDRay will be used for everything from 4K DCP playback in movie theaters to a download/streaming version that will be usable for buying up to 4K movies through iTunes.
if this means we could get HD itunes that are actually blu-ray quality without it being 50 GB I'm all for it.
I hope they ship it on DVD as i'm not going to tie up my Internet connection for 3 hrs while it downloads:(
Agreed. If not DVDs then a flash drive like they did the restore stuff for the Airs
I doubt Apple will ship a new version of FCP before they ship lion,
folks said the same thing about FCS3 and Snow Leopard and yet as I recall that is exactly what they did.
Ugh. Final Cut is fine the way it is for now... We need iWeb overhaul!! Make it more search engine friendly, none of the text as an image crap. grrr...
Final Cut is fine but it could be much better. Both full studios in fact could be much much better in a number of ways
That said, there are rumors about iWeb being revamped which is why it wasn't updated in iLife 11. And about the release of an iweb for ipad app. So you might get your wish
Yvan256
Apr 6, 01:45 PM
Once people start buying and using software (even freeware), the game is over. Most people don't want to lose what they use right now, it's their "personal software libraries".
That's why Microsoft Windows still dominates the desktop and even a free OS like Linux cannot compete. More than two decades of Windows near-monopoly on the desktop can't be pushed aside as easily as OSS folks would like to, though they did win on the server side.
That's also why the iPad currently dominates the tablet market and probably will for at least a few years down the road. The only chance competitors have is to sell a tablet for at most half the price of the iPad, with equivalent features (browser, music, videos, books). Unfortunately for them, the iPad can also run software made for the iPhone and iPod touch, so they are much more than a year late as far as "personal software libraries" go.
Apple, on the other hand, are simply competing with themselves. Their goal doesn't appear to be "beat the competitors products", it's probably "beat the previous iteration of our own product".
Twice as much RAM, faster dual-core CPU, up to 9 times faster GPU, facetime cameras... the iPad 1 just can't compare to the iPad 2. Imagine what's to come for future models.
That's why Microsoft Windows still dominates the desktop and even a free OS like Linux cannot compete. More than two decades of Windows near-monopoly on the desktop can't be pushed aside as easily as OSS folks would like to, though they did win on the server side.
That's also why the iPad currently dominates the tablet market and probably will for at least a few years down the road. The only chance competitors have is to sell a tablet for at most half the price of the iPad, with equivalent features (browser, music, videos, books). Unfortunately for them, the iPad can also run software made for the iPhone and iPod touch, so they are much more than a year late as far as "personal software libraries" go.
Apple, on the other hand, are simply competing with themselves. Their goal doesn't appear to be "beat the competitors products", it's probably "beat the previous iteration of our own product".
Twice as much RAM, faster dual-core CPU, up to 9 times faster GPU, facetime cameras... the iPad 1 just can't compare to the iPad 2. Imagine what's to come for future models.
MikeD23nu
Apr 6, 06:26 PM
I just got my low end 13" MacBook Air with 4GB of RAM today too. Should I keep it?
Me too! It's killing me...don't know what to do.
Me too! It's killing me...don't know what to do.
SeaFox
Aug 26, 09:18 PM
You're screwing up, intel. We don't want 300 trillion transistors on a 1 nm die. We want longer battery life. Idiots.
Yes, and as someone has already pointed out, if the Core2 can do 20% better with the same power, can't you just throttle your new Core2 MBP down 20% and get a laptop with the same performance of your old one with 20% better battery life?
Talk about not seeing the forest through the trees. :rolleyes:
Yes, and as someone has already pointed out, if the Core2 can do 20% better with the same power, can't you just throttle your new Core2 MBP down 20% and get a laptop with the same performance of your old one with 20% better battery life?
Talk about not seeing the forest through the trees. :rolleyes:
wpotere
Apr 27, 12:05 PM
I lost mine a few years ago and it was re-issued so it isn't worn and faded. Does that mean I can't run for president? :eek::p
macgeek2005
Aug 19, 06:08 PM
I'm sure you know this. But just a reminder that you would be dealing with an extremely fragile and tricky upgrade process that could destroy your motherboard or fry the processor without the latest cooling system from Apple. Just my own caution against attempting this. Not worth the risk I think. There will be a better video card with the Dual Clovertown Mac Pro as well as other changes to the system fixing bugs discovered between now and then. Too many changes in the works for me to want to fool with such a complex system.
You make me mad you know that? All over the boards I see your posts with your weird avatar and your extremely critical opinions on everything. Why don't you wait until 2010 and get a 32 core system from intel. Why don't you wait until nobody uses computers anymore. This is just a phase in the history of the world. There will be something beyond computers in another few hundred years. Why buy a computer if it'll be obsolete at some point?
Professional users are out there using G5 towers and even G4's. They're using MacBook Pro's, which are much less powerfull than the Quad Mac Pro right now. I mean, what's your problem? Will there ever be a computer good enough for you?
There are people like you out there, but i've never met a case as extreme as you. I mean, you even went as far as to say that theres very little you can do with 4 cores. Where the **** did you pull that from? Actually, don't answer that question.
I think that you're secretly some evil worker from microsoft trying to stall people from buying Mac Pro's!
If everyone could all of a sudden comprehend exactly how powerful the current machines are, anyone who was thinking of buying one, would buy one.
But you're out here with your "Clovertown is better" and your "Bugs must be worked out" and your this and your that.
You know what? I have three Rev. A iMac Core Duo's in my house, and not a single one of them has had a bug, a crash, a freeze, or a problem of any sort. Rev. A.
HMMM. Maybe Apple does know how to do Rev. A. Just sometimes? Maybe? Perhaps?
Especially with their Quad Xeon 64 Bit Workstation which they've been working on for over a year?
Do you realise that in the procces of making these computers they work out the bugs themselves? They use the computers, and find all the bugs possible, and work them out?
What do you think all those apple workers have been doing for the last year and a half, if not working out bugs on their machines?
For anyone out there who has been needlessly influenced by this guy to wait for a system that will only be outdated by the one that will come after it, please uninfluence yourself, and buy the stupid computer that you want, when you want it.
Jeeshh!!
You make me mad you know that? All over the boards I see your posts with your weird avatar and your extremely critical opinions on everything. Why don't you wait until 2010 and get a 32 core system from intel. Why don't you wait until nobody uses computers anymore. This is just a phase in the history of the world. There will be something beyond computers in another few hundred years. Why buy a computer if it'll be obsolete at some point?
Professional users are out there using G5 towers and even G4's. They're using MacBook Pro's, which are much less powerfull than the Quad Mac Pro right now. I mean, what's your problem? Will there ever be a computer good enough for you?
There are people like you out there, but i've never met a case as extreme as you. I mean, you even went as far as to say that theres very little you can do with 4 cores. Where the **** did you pull that from? Actually, don't answer that question.
I think that you're secretly some evil worker from microsoft trying to stall people from buying Mac Pro's!
If everyone could all of a sudden comprehend exactly how powerful the current machines are, anyone who was thinking of buying one, would buy one.
But you're out here with your "Clovertown is better" and your "Bugs must be worked out" and your this and your that.
You know what? I have three Rev. A iMac Core Duo's in my house, and not a single one of them has had a bug, a crash, a freeze, or a problem of any sort. Rev. A.
HMMM. Maybe Apple does know how to do Rev. A. Just sometimes? Maybe? Perhaps?
Especially with their Quad Xeon 64 Bit Workstation which they've been working on for over a year?
Do you realise that in the procces of making these computers they work out the bugs themselves? They use the computers, and find all the bugs possible, and work them out?
What do you think all those apple workers have been doing for the last year and a half, if not working out bugs on their machines?
For anyone out there who has been needlessly influenced by this guy to wait for a system that will only be outdated by the one that will come after it, please uninfluence yourself, and buy the stupid computer that you want, when you want it.
Jeeshh!!
Ivan P
Apr 8, 02:25 AM
Well right now I'm looking at both their online stores. Both sites have the Apple TV @ $99, so... uh.. Lol.
Wait ... I don't think I mentioned Best Buy paying customers to buy Apple products. I don't fully understand your post :/
I think what they're saying is it costs Best Buy (and I guess other resellers) $90 for each AppleTV unit they order in - and they sell it for Apple's set price of $99, meaning they make a measly $9 profit from the sale of one unit. They didn't mean that they are selling the unit to the consumer themselves for $90.
Edit. Original poster replied saying the exact same thing
Wait ... I don't think I mentioned Best Buy paying customers to buy Apple products. I don't fully understand your post :/
I think what they're saying is it costs Best Buy (and I guess other resellers) $90 for each AppleTV unit they order in - and they sell it for Apple's set price of $99, meaning they make a measly $9 profit from the sale of one unit. They didn't mean that they are selling the unit to the consumer themselves for $90.
Edit. Original poster replied saying the exact same thing
Koufax80
Apr 25, 02:41 PM
Damnit! I just looked outside and saw Steve Jobs with a clipboard... Apple must have sent him to track my location since I turned my phone off...
Cheerwino
Apr 19, 08:02 PM
Me, Urg, first caveman to make rock round! Michelin and Firestone steal idea!
jfinn1976
Jun 14, 03:56 PM
My local RS said 7:30 pre-orders start on tues the 15th, I sure hope you don't wait until thurs.
patseguin
Aug 7, 08:21 AM
Will Leopard be available for download by ADC members as soon as it is given out at WWDC?
epitaphic
Aug 18, 11:46 PM
So you think they put an extra processor in across the line just to be able to say they had a quad? Even the AnandTech article you used as a source showed here (http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2816&p=18) that PS took advantage of quad cores in Rosetta
Yes under some specific results the quad was a bit faster than the dual. Though with the combo of Rosetta+Photoshop its unclear what is causing the difference. However, if you compare the vast majority of the benchmarks, there's negligible difference.
Concerning Photoshop specifically, as can be experienced on a quad G5, the performance increase is 15-20%. A future jump to 8-core would theoretically be in the 8% increase mark. Photoshop (CS2) simply cannot scale adequately beyond 2 cores, maybe that'll change in Spring 2007. Fingers crossed it does.
Your points about latency and FSB are not separate negatives as you have made them. They are redundant theoretical concerns with implications of unclear practical significance.
I beg to differ. If an app or game is memory intensive, faster memory access does matter. Barefeats (http://barefeats.com/quad09.html) has some benchmarks on dual channel vs quad channel on the Mac Pro. I'd personally like to see that benchmark with an added Conroe system. If dual to quad channel gave 16-25% improvement, imagine what 75% increase in actual bandwidth will do. Besides, I was merely addressing your statements that Woodcrest is faster because of its higher speed FSB and higher memory bus bandwidth.
I am not worried. Everything anyone has come up with on this issue are taken from that same AnandTech article. Until I see more real-world testing, I will not be convinced. Also, I expect that more pro apps such as PS will be able to utilize quad cores in the near future, if they aren't already doing so. Finally, even if Conroe is faster, Woodcrest is fast enough for me ;).
Anandtech, at the moment, is the only place with a quad xeon vs dual xeon benchmark. And yes, dual Woodcrest is fast enough, but is it cost effective compared to a single Woodcrest/Conroe? It seems that for the most part, Mac Pro users are paying for an extra chip but only really utilizing it when running several CPU intensive apps at the same time.
I think you misread that. They were comparing Core 2 Extreme (not Woodcrest) and Conroe to see whether the increased FSB of the former would make much difference.
You're absolutely right about that, its only measuring the improvement over increased FSB. If you take into account FB-DIMM's appalling efficiency, there should be no increase at all (if not decrease) for memory intensive apps.
One question I'd like to put out there, if Apple has had a quad core mac shipping for the past 8 months, why would it wait til intel quads to optimize the code for FCP? Surely they must have known for some time before that that they would release a quad core G5 so either optimizing FCP for quads is a real bastard or they've been sitting on it for no reason.
Yes under some specific results the quad was a bit faster than the dual. Though with the combo of Rosetta+Photoshop its unclear what is causing the difference. However, if you compare the vast majority of the benchmarks, there's negligible difference.
Concerning Photoshop specifically, as can be experienced on a quad G5, the performance increase is 15-20%. A future jump to 8-core would theoretically be in the 8% increase mark. Photoshop (CS2) simply cannot scale adequately beyond 2 cores, maybe that'll change in Spring 2007. Fingers crossed it does.
Your points about latency and FSB are not separate negatives as you have made them. They are redundant theoretical concerns with implications of unclear practical significance.
I beg to differ. If an app or game is memory intensive, faster memory access does matter. Barefeats (http://barefeats.com/quad09.html) has some benchmarks on dual channel vs quad channel on the Mac Pro. I'd personally like to see that benchmark with an added Conroe system. If dual to quad channel gave 16-25% improvement, imagine what 75% increase in actual bandwidth will do. Besides, I was merely addressing your statements that Woodcrest is faster because of its higher speed FSB and higher memory bus bandwidth.
I am not worried. Everything anyone has come up with on this issue are taken from that same AnandTech article. Until I see more real-world testing, I will not be convinced. Also, I expect that more pro apps such as PS will be able to utilize quad cores in the near future, if they aren't already doing so. Finally, even if Conroe is faster, Woodcrest is fast enough for me ;).
Anandtech, at the moment, is the only place with a quad xeon vs dual xeon benchmark. And yes, dual Woodcrest is fast enough, but is it cost effective compared to a single Woodcrest/Conroe? It seems that for the most part, Mac Pro users are paying for an extra chip but only really utilizing it when running several CPU intensive apps at the same time.
I think you misread that. They were comparing Core 2 Extreme (not Woodcrest) and Conroe to see whether the increased FSB of the former would make much difference.
You're absolutely right about that, its only measuring the improvement over increased FSB. If you take into account FB-DIMM's appalling efficiency, there should be no increase at all (if not decrease) for memory intensive apps.
One question I'd like to put out there, if Apple has had a quad core mac shipping for the past 8 months, why would it wait til intel quads to optimize the code for FCP? Surely they must have known for some time before that that they would release a quad core G5 so either optimizing FCP for quads is a real bastard or they've been sitting on it for no reason.
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